horrible week. that is it for me. neil cavuto is up next to explain all things money. have a great weekend. >>neil: they came. they met. they talked. what did they do? markets are hopeful they did something. they nice with each other and constructive. for now, wall street is buying. are you? welcome, everyones i am neil cavuto and fox on top of time running out, and with washington clearing out for thanksgiving, any chance they can still avoid a cliff this christmas? trillions in spending cuts and expiring tax rates are on the line, to wall streeter playing things very close to his vest. larry, what do you think? >>guest: investors remain very

concerned. they are worried about higher tasses and runaway spending. this has been playing out the least of which is 1,000 stock market decline the last month. it is playing out in other ways. for example, companies that are winners should be very strong going into the year end particularly with the holiday season ahead such as apple computer down 25 percent from the height as investors lock in lower capital gains this year ahead of what will be higher taxes in the future. dividend place, income place for retirees, utilities, and at&t and verizon weak over the prospect of higher taxes on the dividends going forward. also, small businesses are fretting because they have not had adequate representation in this discussion. everyone is hugs and kitses --

kisses in washington? where is small business representation? >>neil: maybe we saw some bright spots today and a lot of it is based on the view that putting together a deal looks better just from the language used today and i don't know if there is truth to that but i wonder, you can put together a deal but if it is a bad deal wall street will sell off and the rating agencies will downgrade you. what do you envision? >>guest: it is a show me story, and investors and voters and consumers alike have every reason to be skeptical because we haven't seen results. there is a lot of talk in washington, the feel good moment, everyone said we will make a deal but what will it look like? if the small business owners have to unfairly bear the burden , it will wands up taking it out on the workers.

they will lose out in the process. what will the deal look like now? harry reid talks of a deal that is imminent, the shop day shopping season can amount to 25 percent to 35 percent of retail sales. that is key to the economy for christmas. it is a huge percentage of overall sales. everyone should be caution. cautiously optimistic but cautious. it is a show me story. >>neil: we will see what the markets show us next week. to north dakota republican on whether a deal can be done. what do you think? >>guest: we can get to a deal. i am pleased the results of the meeting today produced some optimism on the part of leadership and the president. but we have laid out the principles for a deal, and now it is a matter of getting them done. >>neil: if it is the principles that include revenue

and speaker boehner agrees to a rate hike, not just limiting deductions and that sort of thing, what would you think? >>guest: i don't think he will agree to a rate hike. what you are looking at is closing loopholes and limiting deductions and getting revenue from growth combined with entitlement reform and better spending control. >>neil: if it is a rate hike you would not be for that because the president argued earlier this week he doesn't think the numbers are there to get as much from closing loopholes, allowances and the rest than a simple hike in the rate? >>guest: the reality is to get revenue, you need economic growth and by raising rates you hurt economic growth by closing loopholes limiting deductions you make sure that wealthy people pay their fair share. >>neil: you can get a like amount of money from that, senator, than just raising the rate itself? >>guest: that is the real chance to get revenue because you have the kind of tax reform

that will stimulate economic growth. if our economy doesn't grow you will not have more revenue even if you raise rates. that combined with spending control and entitlement reform, this is a real mood in congress to do this. so, it is time to seize the moment and get it done. >>neil: a lot of your colleagues are saying seize the moment but get the moment out of the way because we want to be done with it and we know revenues will go up, let's get this fiscal cliff issue behind us, really, fight the real world next year. what do you think? >>guest: there is a feeling you have to set the fundamental deal in place and it takes time to make sure you do it in a thunderstorm overway. look, the deal has to be struck now, the pressure is on now, get the deem done. if this is a short-term extension to get everything in place, fine, but not a small deal. we need the big deal.

entitlement reform, spending controls, the things that will send the signals of certainty to the markets and we are serious about getting on top of the deficit. that is what we need to get the economy going. >>neil: your colleagues are circulating a letter which they say hands off medicaid and medicare and social security. they are off the table. that is a huge chunk of our spending and getting to be a bigger chunk, how do you feel about that? >>guest: two things. you can't solve the problem, the deficit problem, without addressing entitlement reform. that is number one. number two, look, if you say we are not going to affect people who are 55 and old are but this will only make bipartisan changes for people who are under 55, everyone is on board, both republicans and democrats. >>neil: what did you think of that letter that went beyond what was stated in the past

going into the talks that everyone would be on the table and if they took it off the table, obviously you have your work cut out. >>guest: you cannot take things off the table. we need to get the big deal done with everything on the table with all the elements i have described. >>neil: thank you, senator. now democratic congressman chris van hollen. >>guest: i think a deal can be reached, the sentiment was good they had constructive talks but as you indicated --. >>neil: what made them constructive? >>guest: in the sense that all parties understood the importance trying to revent us from going over the fiscal cliff but the devil is in the details.

we have had the sentiments before and they have not produced a result. so this will be some are very tough negotiating. it is obviously better that the mood is constructive than otherwise but at the end of the day, very tough compromises will have to be hammered out. >>neil: nancy pelosi said, not to touch entitlements talking generally about medicare and medicaid, and social security, and a letter circulating in the senate senators harken and rockefeller of the same sentiment. do you agree? >>guest: we have different approaches for saving money. if you save money the way we did in affordable care act by reducing costs but not simply transferring rising health care costs on to the backs of seniors that is the approach we put forward. >>neil: you are not in the camp that says don't look, the

let are circulating in the senate says don't even look at them. >>guest: i have not season the letter but the same senators voted for the affordable care act and they agreed we needed to change the incentives in the health care system. what we have said, we will look at ways to bring down health care costs over all moving away from the strict fee-for-service system in medicare which we have begun to do. we can build on that. but we will not take a system like the voucher systems that have been proposed and transfer the risks and costs of health care on to the backs of seniors on medicare which is what a lot of these republican proposals would do. we will not do that. i am not saying it is a negotiating point, but those senators have also supported the requested of trying to change

some of the incentives in medicare to focus on the quality of care and quantity of care. what they are saying is, we should not simply off load the costs of rising health care on to the backs of seniors. >>neil: we can argue about that for a while but congressman i want your take on what changed among the democrats after the election to double the revenue? we were looking last time at $800 billion tax increase as part of the deal and now the and the others want $1.6 billion and you will not accept anything less than a rate hike for wealthy taxpayers. do you concur with the rate hike idea that anything short of that doesn't cut it blue talking closing deductions, loopholes, that sort of thing? >>guest: you raise two issues. they are related. one is the amount revenue you raise. the second is how you raise it. with respect to the amount of

revenue, what the president proposed more than a year ago, now, was a $4 trillion plan that included $1.6 trillion in revenue. a lot of that revenue, $1 trillion, would come from having the top rate on high income earners go back to where it was during the clinton time, and another was reducing the value of the deductions for high income earners, tax reform proposals achieving $1.6 trillion in revenue which is less than the total amount of revenue that simpson-bowles has. >>neil: you would do both, a rate hike and limit deductions? >>guest: the important thing is to get a balanced deficit plan and the key is to have the revenue combined with cuts. we did $1 trillion in cuts. we sudden look for additional cuts and reform with differences on how we get there.

>>neil: that is why republicans are saying it is disproportionately on the revenue side. what do you may of that? >>guest: we did $1 trillion in cuts. that was 100 percent cuts. we should accept the framework of simpson-bowles in terms of the total amount of revenue they have and the cuts. that is a bipartisan product, the result of bipartisan negotiations and our aim should be to have a plan that has that amount of total revenue and the spending cuts. but simpson-bowles numbers their starting point assumes the revenue you get from raising the rates to the higher income level. but they do not proposal to do it that way. >>neil: i just want to be clear. >>guest: there are two issues. one is having a balanced land with enough revenue to get us to $4 trillion in deficit reduction. it is hard to do that with just

$1 trillion. >>neil: i understand. we can sort out the details of the other components but it sounds like central to the democratic negotiations here will be you look at a rate hike for the wealthy. in other words, the rates for the rich go back to clinton levels and limit their deductions. >>guest: in terms of the rates, it is a question of math. the president is saying to speaker boehner, look, the tone, the mood, is good but let's see your plan. the president's plan has been on the table. we saying to speaker boehner, here is what we need in revenue as part of a balanced plan. we think you get there by reagans the rates to the clinton era levels. we will look at it, we think the way to do it is to have the rate

return for high income earners for clinton era levels. >>neil: is this guy creating a distraction for this guy?

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>>neil: a sex scandal ended this man's career, and how much could it affect this man's career, saying that c.i.a. new from day one benghazi attack was terrorism and the white house said otherwise. the ball is in the president's court the next move could make. >> the difference. a presidential historian on the implications of all of this, douglas, what do you think? >>guest: well, the part robert frost wrote the only way out is through, the only way we get out of this and the white house will get around benghazi is to come clean on what transpired. it seems they are stuck on what is unclassified c.i.a. material

versus classified material. it is stuck on the fact we don't know who took out the notion that al qaeda was behind the benghazi attack. there is a mystery person who seems to have excised this for national security reasons. susan rice gave a misleading report. >>neil: the president was upset that republicans were ganging up on her. to your point, she was the person brought out on all the shows to talk about this. it seemed like false rage? >>guest: she has been with him since 2008 and he was pushing her for secretary of state, still very well might, if that occurs, if he picks rice, you will have a brouhaha in washington over it. >>neil: would she be accepted? there is so much baggage

attached? >>guest: there is a risk in doing it. you can now get someone like john kerry put in as secretary of state in a heartbeat and she can be national security advisor and avoid a more public scrutiny. >>neil: they are worried about jesus christ because they would lose the senate seat. >>guest: that is what they say. >>neil: but they have a cushion. >>guest: the middle east is in a tense situation and he is hid of the senate foreign relations and is a more likely person that susan rice. certainly the republicans would green light him, not that they love him but he has relation ships and rice icon with rebound and john kerry is not. >>neil: now the sex scandal part, my favorite issue and how leaders deal with that. what do you think here any lessons?

it is not as if this is the first time it has happened and won't be the last. >>guest: general petraeus is a great american and like many people he made a mistake and is paying for it dearly in the public press but he will be back. we always know there is a second act. >>neil: but you have heard the argument, powerful men in positions of great influence, this is common. common. why? >>guest: because you want to get away from history and go to poetry and drama and literature. love, lust, ego, we could label it and try to understand it but it happens constantly. it is lonely over there in the middle east and he found a muse and it cost his him job. he seemed to not cross the line when he was in the army but he came out as a civilian in the

c.i.a. he let his bridge down. >>neil: always a pleasure, douglas. walmart in a heap of trouble for having workers work on turkey day? switchgrass in argentina, change engineering in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the aerospace industry in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪

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>>neil: workers arrest lashing back over thanksgiving hours with walmart opening at 8:00 and target at 9:00 but with unemployment at 7.9 percent, my guest says they should be happy to have a job. that is rather heartless. >>guest: firsts let me just say i have extreme empathy for the workers. thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. you want to do nothing on thanksgiving but eat and watch

football and maybe if you have to talk to your extended family. i love my extended family, for the record. >>neil: that is where will walmart opening works out, you can shop. >>guest: i understand where they coming from, they don't want to go to work on the evening of thanksgiving so i have that sympathy but there are 12 million american whose don't have a job and i have sympathy for the people who run target trying to make a profit and stay competitive to stay in business to employ these people so unemployment is not worse. it is tough. no one wants to say you is to show up at 9:00 p.m. on thanksgiving night. look, the competition is doing it. we are a competition based economy. things are stuff. to some extent i work on thanksgiving, thank your blessings you have a job the show up. >>neil: here is the argument. i can relate to the workers to many retailers, it is the first

time. you have always had new area's and thanksgiving and christmas, but it is not common. and now you are given this shocker. >>guest: well, it is a shocker, a change. people didn't like change. you have an amendments race where black friday starts sooner and sooner and it will be black thursday suddenly and thanksgiving will disappear and it will be a new shopping day. >>neil: do the shows get that much in open sales? >>guest: i bet so. >>neil: they trample each other for a flat screen t? >>guest: i am not a fan of that but with margins like this these days and a tough economy, stores looking at what the competition is doing and what they have to do to make the bottom line and if companies go under like hostess today, a lot of people loss their jobs, folks will complain about something different. >>neil: if you were walmart and a work are said i appear not coming in, that is sacred, would you fire that worker?

>>guest: i don't like to take about firing someone. i might say, this person over leader will take those hours and maybe it is time and a half, i hope they are getting paid center, but there are millions of people who would line up to get a good honest paycheck on thanksgiving night if it means taking home a paycheck to their family which they have not done for months or years. >>neil: thank you, guy, and if you see him in a walmart... >> i'll be at the front of the line. >>neil: and now the president is getting out of town just when the fiscal cliff talks are getting off the ground. ♪

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>>neil: the president is headed out headed to asia as members of the team meet with lawmakers the next few days although the lawmakers are leaving, as well. so, interest so much hanging on the deal should the president and congress be staying in town to strike a deal? does this trouble you that a week is being slashed off the calendar to get stuff done? >>guest: well, it is good to be on your show. in the west we still believe you were born in krypton. >>neil: i was, actually.

>>guest: as far as the president taking a few days off and much deserved vacation he is going to a few countries in asia we have not paid much attention to and i don't get worked up about that and most people take the next week and relaxing with their families or going somewhere, so the president certainly is entitled to do what he is doing. >>neil: that is why i point out they are all leaving, so it made me think a deal or the framework of a deal must be more imminent than it appears because you would not leave town if you were nowhere in the same ball park. is that an overinteresting? >>guest: what troubles me and troubles those who are bit executives and out in the real world of business opposed to sitting in washington, and have payrolls to meet and businesses to run, the folks is been at this, now, for a long, long time and they promised they would have a deal by the end of the year and the american public

expects something by the end of year. we expect the democrats and the republicans to come together and figure out how to increase revenues and decrease this massive deficit we have. there is going to be tremendous disappointment if there isn't something done. >>neil: what do you think will happen? ocean well, i firmly believe there are deals cooking behind the scenes and they going do come up and it will be a compromise and it will be certainly revenues people like me who have done well in business, why mind having my taxes go up. that is fine. that is part of what the american mandate was when they elected president obama the he won the we knew our taxes going up. >>neil: you don't care if it is a rate hike or limiting your deductions it is all the same thing? >>guest: no, no, a rate hike is one thing but they need to leave dividends alone, that, really, is --. >>neil: wait, wait, but

speaker boehner seems to be hanging on the thread here that if he just limits rich folks' deductions and write offs that will satisfy the president. the president seems to think, no, no, no, you have to hike rates that is the only thing that will work. >>guest: well, why have any real objection to what the president says. we did extremely well during the clinton era and i am a republican, died in the wool but i feel comfortable moving up our rates but with that has to come a significant reduction in entitlements and costs. >>neil: as a businessman, you hear some democrats say they don't want to touch entitlements or get medicare and medicaid and social security on the table, that would be disheartening, would it not? >>guest: well, i don't think medicare should be on the table and i don't think medicaid should but military spending should, i think the other, there

are over 1,000 programs they have now that they could cut costs. >>neil: leave medicare and medicaid alone? >>guest: yeses -- yes, absolutely. >>neil: your son rap -- ran a very brief race and he said at the time if republicans everyone not careful long before this, they had to be more inclusive and they were marginalizing themselves. many argue he was right and they have ground do make up. do you agree with that? should he run again to officer that? >>guest: well, i can't answer the question, i hope he does run again, that is his decision. but he is absolutely right. we did a very poor job of bringing in the hispanic population and addressing women and young people. >>neil: what happened?

>>guest: the republican party was misled by dick morris and karl rove and i don't know why they got everyone off track. i am a fox news fan but you know, all these polling services had it right except fox, and they lulled us to sleep and what happened we for get to address our base. our base is young people. our base is women. our base is anyone who will fit under the big tent. >>neil: you admit this was a distinction between our fox news polls and what those two gentleman were saying, i am not speaking as a company guy but they were saying one thing and fox news was not representative of what they were saying, either, but i understand your point, you think get over them and move on? >>guest: absolutely. part of it is entertainment. i am not trying to be critical i am upbeat and positive person and i believe the future --

better days are ahead of us. we have had the strongest year in the history our 42-year business this year. >>neil: what did you thing of mitt romney when he said after the fact to donors and the like, a large part of the president's victory was because people get stuff? they get a lost stuff? >>guest: he needs to high for two or three months he wiped out the 47 percent, now he has done this and made this other statement, he needs to get off the stage and let the republican party rebuild itself. it has the potential. they are great people. we need to reach out, and jon has been an ambassador three times and a governor twice and speaks to the crowds and to the students and to the hispanics and i sound like a campaign manager but i believe in that, i believe in the big tent i believe that the remembers really offer a they opportunity

to america but we just need to exercise it. >>neil: i wondered what happened to you, jon, but, now i know. always a pleasure. hope you are feeling well and doing well, and you are curing a lot of very sick people in your foundation. thank you very much. >>guest: love and good wishes to you. happy thanksgiving. >>neil: a bakers strike shutting down hostess. is thedown about to lose the mostess? [ male announcer ] at scottrade, we believe the more you know, the better you trade. so we have ongoing webinars and interactive learning,

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action, can non-union workers sue? time to try this. we welcome lis and stacey. >>lis: absolutely. you have hostess versus the unions, right? hostess gives a bogus settlement offer in september and the unions say, negotiation we will not talk. so hostess says, we are closing down 18,000 bluff people the lose their jobs and the union doesn't negotiate and hostess doesn't negotiate and the people who are really caught in the middle, they are the non-union members. they had no say or bargaining chips yet they lose their jobs. go after the union, go after hostess. >>guest: no, no and no. the non-union employees have absolutely no legal right to keep their jobs. host says a private company. >>neil: even if the union guys brought it on? >>guest: legally they are not

bringing it on they are all employees at will so hostess has the legal right to hire and fire. hostess is bankrupt because of the strike. they cannot operate. they don't have the money. that is a legitimate legal reason to lay off employees, so i don't think any cause of action. >>lis: hostest has an obligation to negotiate. the unions had an obligation to negotiate with hostess knowing they did not this would happen and hostess went into bankruptcy in 2004 so this is a replay of 2004. >>guest: i disagree. hostess is private f they want to close up they have every right. >>lis: the non-union employees have a right to keep their jobs. you have to represent the non-union employees, as well. >>neil: who do they sue? police if i were a non-union

employee who lost my job --. >>neil: you with have to line up like any creditor? >>guest: right. i will sue both. >> they negotiated poorly. >>lis: that is not what the law says. they have to bargain in good faith. >> who is in bad faith? the unions bargain in bad faith. >>lis: that is what i am say ing. >>neil: lawyers just looking to sue. you are finding jobs for lawyers. this is not the first company when negotiations turn south with the unions that it want out of business, there have been a host of other companies, the non-union workers get mad at the union workers but it is a moot point because the company is toast. >>lis: if the company did not

budget an in good faith and if the non-union members --. >>neil: how can you prove that. they had an idea of a deal and the union had another. >>lis: bring in the laws. can they sue? and i said, yes, they can, find a good lawyer. >>guest: i don't think hostess wanted to shut down and to say they did not bargain in good faith, there will be no evidence. >>neil: what is the legal, beyond this, someone will get the brand of hostess, i don't know who, but whoever gets it, would that company be liable? >>lis: potentially. they come in with clean hands. >>neil: that is one person you would not sue? well, there you go there are even limits for you. >>lis: what is interesting the steam materials are several unions. the bakers caused this allegedly

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>>neil: tensions flare-up with a new round of fighting between the israelis and militants in and around hamas. in gaza the oil traders are nervous when they see this predictable pattern and a matter time before driver could see this at pump. the question is: how soon?

and now the latest. >>guest: the concern is that the conflict may spread so today we saw oil spike a full percent with the rising taxes teen israel and palestinian militants renewing fears the conflict could spread to other oil rich nations in the region and could cause a major disruption analysts say this middle east oil supplies. oil and gasoline prices rose this week after israel intensified the air campaign in the gaza strip and militants ramped up rocket attacks and deepened israeli city on the gaza border, israel began mobilizing tens of thousands of troops leaving onlookers fearful the tensions will worsen. the government of egypt voiced support for hamas dispatching the new prime minister to gaza in an unprecedented support for a senior egyptian official. no country involved here is a major oil producers, the concern

in the trading community is that the conflict could spread particularly to oil-rich nations and egypt, obviously has a couple of big routes for oil supplies to transfer through. for traders the conflict is always concern the conflict could spread and that hinges as we go into the weekend. >>neil: here we go again. thank you very much. the election may be over but the president's becomers are turning -- backers are turning up the heat sending protesters to republican lawmakers who could turn on taxes who say it is time for republicans to mobilize, as well, according to my guest. the pressure is on. a republican said it is not whether we are going to increase taxes but how were. >>guest: i don't think that is right. i don't think --. >>neil: why they are folding like cheap suits. >>guest: they are indicating they are weak if their resolve.

this is no surprise the president is resorting to the same tactics telling a group of folk from the white house, big labor on wednesday, the campaign isn't over. that is a problem with this president. he is in campaign mode and he said from day one in 2009 he was going to raise taxes on the so-called rich and the republicans have said, from day one, that is a nonstarter, we need tax reform, cuts in entitlement spending, which are spreading our debt and deficit, and simpson-bowles has said that, the commission that he kicked to the curb. >>neil: what do you make, i have talked to both sides, the northbound -- negotiators and they all agree revenue will go up but i asked what spending is cut, they said they is not agree but they all agree revenue will go up. how did that happen? >>guest: i don't know how it has happened or why republicans are trying to cave and placate the president who has shown no

leadership on spending and cutting our debt and deficit. he has shown zero leadership. what we should say is we should say, mr. president this is not a dictatorship. you know what happened in the 2012 elections? the people elected republicans in control of the house of representatives. we don't have a revenue problem. we have a spending problem. >>neil: but they are not doing that. >>guest: i don't hear speaker cantor saying bring on the tax hikes. i'm sorry, majority leader cantor, majority leader cantor. i don't think -- we should wait-and-see but i also think the republicans should call the president's bluff and say let all the tax cuts expire for all groups of citizens, all classes, all brackets, and see what happens, mr. president, how are you going to explain that to the

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>> final lly. one of the qualities i admire about myself is my modesty. >> kidding of course. all i need to recall is the wisdom of my now departed dad fully recognizing my big head even as a kid and offered this sage advice, neil, stay humble, in your case it will come in handy. decades later when my mom passed away and my career was progressing, my dad would be sitting all alone in the house crowded with kids, watching me on tv. and man of few words and only in america, boy, could you be offering financial advicement

we had a good laugh, but his point was serious, don't get cocky, soon you'll be clueless, i think if dad were around today he'd be looking at democrats coming out of the election and thinking they won a landslide, and acting that way. don't get cocky. americans would like you to lead not do victory laps. in the bid to celebrate this they forgot prior elections and of leaders in that party republicans took over the house, and lead nrs that party thought they would be indestruct tibl. and two years before that, with the democrats in complete control of washington, they were done in washington. just like democrats were done and so likely when bill clinton in 1994, well, they weren't. he wasn't. something happened along the way, each way, each day, they say it's humbling to lose, but i think it it should be even more humbling to win, to see in the moment that it is only

a moment. that in a moment it could change. many times. my dad was a very wise man armed with only a high school education. he had a doctorate in something i like to call life. he got it. and he urged me and my brother and sisters to get this. never become so arrogant that you risk showing others you're an ass and never greater than when things are going your way, because contrary to what you think, people won't remember how you handled things when the chips were down, but how you handled them when the chips were up. democrats now, like republicans two years ago, would be wise to remember that. and fame is fleeting, success even more so. just remember, americans elected you to get a job done and if you can't do it in the next election, well, find someone who can. you don't have to take it from me. take it from history. better yet, take it from my dad. always amazed, in this profession and he